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| Charlie Gorevin- Located - Pictures | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 25 2011, 05:13 AM (1,358 Views) | |
| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:13 AM Post #1 |
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Celtic Graves Society :: Projects :: The First Celtic XI :: Charlie Gorevin- Located - Pictures Page 1 of 5 » Jump to page Go Author Topic: Charlie Gorevin- Located - Pictures (Read 694 times) camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Charlie Gorevin- Located - Pictures « Thread Started on Jun 7, 2010, 4:35pm » Ideas? What's been done in the past? Played for Govan Whitefield and possibly from Sligo. Could be Harry or Charlie? « Last Edit: Jul 22, 2010, 12:54pm by dianogah » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 viewparktims Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 328 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #1 on Jun 7, 2010, 5:21pm » Gorevin is named as Charlie Gorevin by Eugene MacBride although I believe David Potter may have obtained evidence that states the name was Harry Gorevin Maybe the guy had a middle name and this has caused some confusion. That aside, he played for Celtic in the first game on 28th May 1888 and also in another Friendly Match this time against Dundee Harp on 9th June 1888 (Celtic's second game) but I don't find him playing in any other matches. In addition, Eugene MacBride has a handwritten note that "Charlie" went to play for Brooklyn Longfellow FC in New York in the summer of 1889 although I do not have anything to confirm that. Eugene's note would also suggest he went to the USA with a M Gorevin (brother?). If you have access to Passenger Lists through Ancestry.com (or the UK version) maybe you will find him listed as a passenger to New York, Boston or Baltimore in 1889. If so maybe he settled in the USA. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 93.97.68.26 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #2 on Jun 8, 2010, 2:09am » Feck me I've got a lead for this guy in New York. Need Ancestry.com membership to follow it up. Anyone got it? Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #3 on Jun 8, 2010, 11:38am » Fraid not C. David Potter's info came from the Hibs book by Alan Lugton who refers to Harry Gorevin as the Hibs player in season 87-8. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 85.158.139.228 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #4 on Jun 8, 2010, 12:31pm » Got some 14 day free trial so will try to make the most of it. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #5 on Jun 9, 2010, 1:27am » There's been a couple of Discussions on the KDS Wiki about our Mr Gorevin. One of them was started by John Gorevan (note different spelling), who runs a website about Glasgow pubs and may be a relative. I've tried to copy the content of his message and a single response below (sorry, Link not working): Gorevan Gorevin the first ever Celtic game Aug 30 2008, 10:14 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 30 2008, 10:14 AM EDT Hi Does anyone know the first name of Mr Gorevin who played for the very first Celtic game of football, his initial was H. A popular name in Glasgow in the 1880s was Henry, however he came from Sligo. Hope to hear from the experts soon. Cheers John Gorevan * Quote & reply * Post reply out of found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Keyword tags: None (edit keyword tags) kinningpark 1. RE: Gorevin the first ever Celtic game Sep 4 2008, 3:05 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2008, 3:05 PM EDT "Hi Does anyone know the first name of Mr Gorevin who played for the very first Celtic game of football, his initial was H. A popular name in Glasgow in the 1880s was Henry, however he came from Sligo. Hope to hear from the experts soon. Cheers John Gorevan" H Gorevin was loaned out from Govan Whitefield for celtic first game against rangers celtic won 5-2 Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 86.25.219.99 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #6 on Jun 9, 2010, 1:31am » And here is a more detailed discussion, also started by John but with fuller details. This confirms D's info that David Potter believes his name to be Harry: H Gorevin Celtic Player Aug 15 2008, 4:26 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 15 2008, 4:26 PM EDT Hi Does anyone know anything about H Gorevin who played in the very first game of Celtic Football. There seems to be information on other members of the team but nothing on Mr Gorevin. Also... in the list of all the players in the first game Celtic played in brackets there are football clubs mentioned WHAT DO THEY MEAN. ect H Gorevin (Govan Whitefield) Hope to hear from someone with knowledge of the Celtic Football History. Cheers. John. * Quote & reply * Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: None (edit keyword tags) joebloggscity joebloggscity 1. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player Aug 16 2008, 12:58 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 16 2008, 12:58 AM EDT we'll see what we can do, feel free to add any information yo may have also if possible. any problems then jsut ask any of us. * Quote & reply * Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? TheHumanTorpedo TheHumanTorpedo 2. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player Aug 16 2008, 2:58 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 16 2008, 2:58 PM EDT Good spot mate. It appears that although H Gorevin played in Celtic's very first game in May 1888 he never actually played a competitive game for the club. I'm not sure if he played in subsequent friendlies but by the time of the club's first ompetitive action in September 1888 he is nowhere to be seen. The name in brackets is the name of the club the player was with immediately prior to playing for Celtic in that first game. Gorevin would have played for Govan Whitfield. In those very early days players weren't tied to clubs the way they are now and it wasn't unusal for a player to play for various teams during a course of a year. The first Celtic side was essentially a select side. It was made up of players from other clubs who either had pledged their future to the fledgling Bhoys or who at least wanted to show their support by turning out in the inaugural match. I can only guess that Gorevin falls into the latter and the chances are that he returned to play for Govan Whitfield or another side. The A to Z Player section is mainly for thos who have played a competitive match but H Gorevin certainly deserves his own biog page! Thanks for spotting this and I'm sorry that at the moment the info provided is so brief! * Quote & reply * Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? WeeShamrock WeeShamrock 3. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player Aug 20 2008, 5:57 PM EDT | Post edited: Aug 20 2008, 5:57 PM EDT (edit my post) I think this player played for Hibs the season before, at least twice - http://www.hibsstats.co.uk/season%201887-88.html That is probably how he came to be on Celtic's radar. * Quote & reply * Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Gorevan Gorevan 4. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player Aug 30 2008, 7:20 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 30 2008, 7:20 AM EDT Thanks for this great information. You were right about Mr H Gorevin playing for Hibs. Is there any way of finding out where Mr Gorevin lived as there is nothing in the 1881 census returns. And is there a website on the Whitefield F.C Any info would be well appreciated. * Quote & reply * Post reply out of found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Dianogah Dianogah 5. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player Oct 29 2008, 10:09 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 29 2008, 10:09 AM EDT From David Potter: "Alan Lugton's excellent "The Making of Hibernian" tells us that it was HARRY (not Henry, Hugh or Charlie) Gorevin, and that is an excellent and totally reliable source." Thanks to David for taking the time to find this out. * Quote & reply * Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? gorevin 6. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player May 1 2009, 12:40 PM EDT | Post edited: May 1 2009, 12:40 PM EDT "Hi Does anyone know anything about H Gorevin who played in the very first game of Celtic Football. There seems to be information on other members of the team but nothing on Mr Gorevin. Also... in the list of all the players in the first game Celtic played in brackets there are football clubs mentioned WHAT DO THEY MEAN. ect H Gorevin (Govan Whitefield) Hope to hear from someone with knowledge of the Celtic Football History. Cheers. John." my sir name is gorevin and i live in liverpool the name gorevin came from county sligo in ireland in the early 90s and moved to liverpool as far as i know there are only myself and my son left with the sir name gorevin left * Quote & reply * Post reply out of found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? joebloggscity joebloggscity 7. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player May 1 2009, 6:50 PM EDT | Post edited: May 1 2009, 6:50 PM EDT you related to the player? * Quote & reply * Post reply out of found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? WeeShamrock WeeShamrock 8. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player Jun 19 2009, 6:40 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 19 2009, 6:40 PM EDT (edit my post) Saw a reference recently to the Gorevin who played in the 5-2 v der Hun having come from Govan Hibs as opposed to Govan Whitefild. Does that help any? * Quote & reply * Post reply out of found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Gorevan Gorevan 9. RE: H Gorevin Celtic Player Jun 20 2009, 8:25 AM EDT Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 86.25.219.99 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #7 on Jun 9, 2010, 1:44am » We might get some joy re Harry G's background through family: the name's not common and those that have it in the Celtic family seen keen to find out more and share what they've got. Here's a post I put up on CM with more Hibs-related info, confirming that he was known as Harry then: H Gorevin joined Hibs for two friendlies in January 1888 according to this Hibs site: http://www.hibsstats.co.uk/season%201887-88.html Alan Lugton reports in 'The Making of Hibernian' re these friendlies: "Felix Docherty was in goal and a big strapping Irish lad from Carfin Shamrock, Harry Gorevin, played in the forward line." He scored two in the second game, but didn't play again for the Hibs. This reference suggests that Harry Gorevin was himself Irish i.e. born in Ireland, as opposed to most of his team-mates. This suggests that as well as Celtic, Hibs, Govan Whitefield and Govan Hibs that the bold Harry also played for the mighty Carfin Shamrock in 1887 also. What a pedigree that is - a Dundee Harp appearance and he'd pretty much have the full set of all the early leading Irish clubs in Scotland « Last Edit: Jun 9, 2010, 1:52pm by weeshamrock » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 86.25.219.99 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #8 on Jun 9, 2010, 12:46pm » WS another avenue might be investigating the Carfin Shamrocks cup results in the press as he might have played in them. If nothing in any local press then perhaps the local press of their opponents? Chance of a press report at the time perhaps Scottish FA Cup 1886-1887 Date Round Opponent Venue Result Info 11.09.1886 r1 Shettleston away D3-3 18.09.1886 r1r Shettleston home W3-0 02.10.1886 r2 Airdrieonians away L2-3 (Carfin Shamrock won - Airdrieonians disqualified) 1886-1887 r3 bye 06.11.1886 r4 Morton away L0-11 Scottish FA Cup 1887-1888 Date Round Opponent Venue Result Info 03.09.1887 r1 Shettleston home W4-0 24.09.1887 r2 Motherwell home W3-1 15.10.1887 r3 Falkirk away D2-2 22.10.1887 r3r Falkirk home W3-0 1887-1888 r4 bye 26.11.1887 r5 Dundee Wanderers away L2-5 Scottish FA Cup 1888-1889 Date Round Opponent Venue Result Info 01.09.1888 r1 Whifflet Shamrock home W6-1 22.09.1888 r2 Cambuslang away L2-4 « Last Edit: Jun 16, 2010, 9:32am by camillo » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #9 on Jun 9, 2010, 1:19pm » HE'S IN THE HERALD ON OCTOBER 4TH 1886 PLAYING FOR CARFIN SHAMROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Match Report against Airdrie. It's on here but it's a pay site. Didn't someone say they had access to this? Was it VT? or A? Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #10 on Jun 9, 2010, 1:51pm » I think both VT and D said they had access, one had to pay the other hadn't. I'll check out the Scotsman see if there's any details on there. Likely we'd have to go to the library in Motherwell to check through Motherwell Times for the original match reports. Carfin Shamrock were one of the 4 teams which established the Lanarkshire FA along with Motherwell, Accies and (I think) Albion Rovers. There are a lot of Celtic connections with the Holy City (as it was known back in the days of CB radio!) The great-granddaughter of Hugh Clifford started posting info on the KDS wiki about him - she's only a schoolgirl too but has excellent research skills. Found out a welter of info about Hugh's playing career which included Celtic, Hibs and Man City. Hugh is buried in Holytown cemetery where we may locate 1 or 2 other Celtic players' resting places as I think this was one of the original mainly RC cemeteries in that part of Lanarkshire. |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:14 AM Post #2 |
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This is the match report from the Herald on 4th October 1886 but it's Queen's Park v Whitefield. Airdrie did play Carfin Shamrock that day but there's no match detail:
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:14 AM Post #3 |
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Aha No Cigar again. Thanks VT. I'd say that puts paid to the idea of him having a different name. Fairly clear that it's Gorevin there. I suppose he could be Gorevan somewhere but that's a few sources naming him as Gorevin. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #13 on Jun 9, 2010, 6:02pm » Match report from Scotsman, 4th Jan 1888: 3rd Lanark v Hibs http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/1888/1888010401.htm "The visitors had a new centre in Gorevin, from the Whitefield . . ." |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:14 AM Post #4 |
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Gorevin it is then. :D Impressive stuff WS. I suppose he may be on a few more Hibs games. Next match against Dumbarton too  |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:22 AM Post #5 |
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weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #15 on Jun 9, 2010, 9:01pm » I suppose we need to clear up whether there's one or two Gorevins: Harry or Charlie? |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:27 AM Post #6 |
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I think we have our man. Ties in with the New York story. From October 17, 1894,  And in 1896  And he wasn't averse to a bit of GAA either with his brother turning out for the William Barry Association of Jersey City. Gentlemen we have initials. M and C Gorevin  Jan 13 1896  And he wasn't averse to a bit of GAA either with his brother turning out for the William Barry Association of Jersey City. Gentlemen we have initials. M and C Gorevin Jan 13 1896 |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:27 AM Post #7 |
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Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 viewparktims Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 328 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #20 on Jun 10, 2010, 11:56pm » Great work and this would seem to confirm it is C Gorevin Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 93.97.68.26 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #21 on Jun 11, 2010, 1:25am » Jun 7, 2010, 5:21pm, viewparktims wrote: Gorevin is named as Charlie Gorevin by Eugene MacBride although I believe David Potter may have obtained evidence that states the name was Harry Gorevin Maybe the guy had a middle name and this has caused some confusion. In addition, Eugene MacBride has a handwritten note that "Charlie" went to play for Brooklyn Longfellow FC in New York in the summer of 1889 although I do not have anything to confirm that. Eugene's note would also suggest he went to the USA with a M Gorevin (brother?). The new info backs up Eugene's notes then about a move by C(harlie) Gorevin to the US with his brother M. Just wondering if we can be sure it's the same guy. Hibs had a Harry Gorevin who played up front. In Wille Maley's book and elsewhere it states that "H. Gorevin" was our Outside Left in the first game v ra Hun (also says in WM's book that he came from 'Govan Hibs' although "J McLaughlin" came from Govan and Phil Murray (Blantyre). Am I right in that "C Gorevin" appears to be playing further back? Or maybe it's the same guy and in a Chris Sutton stylee, he's moving further back the older he gets??? « Last Edit: Jun 11, 2010, 1:37am by weeshamrock » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 86.25.219.99 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #22 on Jun 11, 2010, 1:39am » The fact that the Gorevin brothers played Gaelic is perhaps not surprising if Lugton's book was correct and Gorevin was in fact Irish i.e. Irish born. Which would explain the absence of a birth record in Scotland's People and the fact he appears to have fallen through the cracks in the census as he was only in Scotland for a relatively short time between Ireland and the USA? * In the 1896 v Internationals, Gorevin was up against a goalkeeper called Dunning. Willie Dunning was Celtic's 2nd keeper from the first Scottish Cup game v Shettleston on 1.9.88 to 29.12.88. What's the chances it's the same guy??? (Alphabet has him retiring from game in 1895 after a period with Aston Villa) « Last Edit: Jun 11, 2010, 1:46am by weeshamrock » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 86.25.219.99 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #23 on Jun 11, 2010, 2:14am » Jun 11, 2010, 1:25am, weeshamrock wrote: Jun 7, 2010, 5:21pm, viewparktims wrote: Gorevin is named as Charlie Gorevin by Eugene MacBride although I believe David Potter may have obtained evidence that states the name was Harry Gorevin Maybe the guy had a middle name and this has caused some confusion. In addition, Eugene MacBride has a handwritten note that "Charlie" went to play for Brooklyn Longfellow FC in New York in the summer of 1889 although I do not have anything to confirm that. Eugene's note would also suggest he went to the USA with a M Gorevin (brother?). The new info backs up Eugene's notes then about a move by C(harlie) Gorevin to the US with his brother M. Just wondering if we can be sure it's the same guy. Hibs had a Harry Gorevin who played up front. In Wille Maley's book and elsewhere it states that "H. Gorevin" was our Outside Left in the first game v ra Hun (also says in WM's book that he came from 'Govan Hibs' although "J McLaughlin" came from Govan and Phil Murray (Blantyre). Am I right in that "C Gorevin" appears to be playing further back? Or maybe it's the same guy and in a Chris Sutton stylee, he's moving further back the older he gets??? He is further back but seems to be playing on the left even in GAA. As you say though WS how often do we see strikers playing at the back as they get on. I'd like to see why we think he is Harry. I think we need the David Potter evidence for this. « Last Edit: Jun 11, 2010, 2:15am by camillo » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #24 on Jun 11, 2010, 2:18am » I'm sure the David Potter source is the Lugton book on Hibs which confirms him as Harry and Irish. Most of the references to the first Celtic team refer to "H. Gorevin" also, although Eugene's notes suggest this may be wrong. If only the Irish birth records were easily accessible online ffs! Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 86.25.219.99 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #25 on Jun 11, 2010, 12:39pm » A previous attempt at finding our man, he's proved elusive for some time: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57108720 Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 85.158.137.196 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' dianogah Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 347 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #26 on Jun 15, 2010, 11:42am » Information from David potter "Alan Lugton's excellent "The Making of Hibernian" tells us that it was HARRY (not Henry, Hugh or Charlie) Gorevin, and that is an excellent and totally reliable source." another user "my sir name is gorevin and i live in liverpool the name gorevin came from county sligo in ireland in the early 90s and moved to liverpool as far as i know there are only myself and my son left with the sir name gorevin left" Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 130.209.6.42 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #27 on Jun 15, 2010, 12:49pm » The Lugton books are considered very authoritative (they are a very good read also). One major drawback though - he doesn't identify his sources, there's no index or footnotes. It appears as though the sources are the newspapers of the day. Having reviewed these posts above I'm thinking that we have do two Gorevins on our hands: a Charlie and a Harry. Charlie was a defender, Harry a forward. Doesn't help much though, does it! « Last Edit: Jun 15, 2010, 10:48pm by weeshamrock » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 85.158.138.20 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #28 on Jun 15, 2010, 11:34pm » I'd agree WS, we may have two Gorevins. What we do have indisputably though are reports from the USA which supports the footnotes of Eugene McBride that there was a Gorevin who played football in New York and that he very likely had a brother with the initial M. It seems he also played GAA with him. It is such an unusual surname though that I still think that you just cannot rule out the fact that it was the same person. I think the way forward with this may be to obtain an American death certificate to throw more light on the Gorevin who was in America. What does David Potter think of the findings on here? Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #29 on Jun 15, 2010, 11:56pm » Some good guys over on KDS have pointed out that our search for the elusvie Gorevin has been attempted before. http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/540131/1/?x=0#post9517102 Extensive searches of the Scottish records had previously confirmed that a family called Gorevin living in Govan at the time included both a Michael and a Charles (posted by Yogibear): 1 1881 GOREVIN Charles M 16 Dwelling: 15 Queen St Govan, Lanark, Scotland VIEW (1 CREDITS) ORDER 2 1881 GOREVIN James M 25 Dwelling: 15 Queen St Govan, Lanark, Scotland VIEW (1 CREDITS) ORDER 3 1881 GOREVIN Margaret F 48 Dwelling: 15 Queen St Govan, Lanark, Scotland VIEW (1 CREDITS) ORDER 4 1881 GOREVIN Margaret F 12 Dwelling: 15 Queen St Govan, Lanark, Scotland VIEW (1 CREDITS) ORDER 5 1881 GOREVIN Michael M 18 Dwelling: 15 Queen St Govan, Lanark, Scotland VIEW (1 CREDITS) ORDER 6 1881 GOREVIN Patrick M 14 Dwelling: 15 Queen St Govan, Lanark, Scotland VIEW (1 CREDITS) ORDER 7 1881 GOREVIN Stephen M 50 Dwelling: 15 Queen St Govan, Lanark, Scotland All this line of Gorevins were born in Ireland. It does not state where they came from. |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:31 AM Post #8 |
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Topic: Charlie Gorevin- Located - Pictures (Read 696 times) camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #30 on Jun 16, 2010, 12:20am » From my CM notes 1900 United States Federal Census about Charles Gorevin Name: Charles Gorevin Home in 1900: Brooklyn Ward 20, Kings, New York Age: 34 Birth Date: Jul 1865 Birthplace: Ireland Race: White Gender: Male Immigration Year: 1886 Relationship to Head of House: Head Father's Birthplace: Ireland Mother's Birthplace: Ireland Spouse's name: Mary Marriage Year: 1895 Marital Status: Married Years Married: 5 Occupation: View on Image Neighbors: View others on page Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #31 on Jun 16, 2010, 12:22am » Name: Michael Gorevin Home in 1900: Brooklyn Ward 8, Kings, New York Age: 33 Birth Date: Jan 1867 Birthplace: Ireland Race: White Gender: Male Immigration Year: 1888 Relationship to Head of House: Head Father's Name: Stephen Father's Birthplace: Ireland Mother's Birthplace: Ireland Spouse's name: Mary A Marriage Year: 1897 Marital Status: Married Years Married: 3 Occupation: View on Image Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Michael Gorevin 33 Mary A Gorevin 27 Margaret Gorevin 2 Michael Gorevin 1 Stephen Gorevin 65 Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #32 on Jun 16, 2010, 12:35am » 1910 United States Federal Census about Charles Gorevin Name: Charles Gorevin Age in 1910: 46 Estimated birth year: abt 1864 Birthplace: Ireland Relation to Head of House: Head Father's Birth Place: Ireland Mother's Birth Place: Ireland Spouse's name: Mary A Home in 1910: Brooklyn Ward 10, Kings, New York Marital Status: Married Race: White Gender: Male Year of Immigration: 1886 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Charles Gorevin 46 Mary A Gorevin 46 View Original Record View original image Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #33 on Jun 16, 2010, 12:36am » Most of the 1890 US Census was destroyed in a fire in Washington Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #34 on Jun 16, 2010, 1:50am » If Charles is our Guy he died Apr 26 1915 in Kings, New York apparently 48. If Michael is his brother he died in Kings, New York Dec 27 1922 age 54 « Last Edit: Jun 16, 2010, 9:40am by camillo » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #35 on Jun 16, 2010, 1:25pm » Jun 16, 2010, 1:50am, camillo wrote: If Charles is our Guy he died Apr 26 1915 in Kings, New York apparently 48. If Michael is his brother he died in Kings, New York Dec 27 1922 age 54 Tremendous work again C! I'm reckoning now you can turn your attentions to Lord Lucan, Shergar and the thousands of regular Celtic fans shaved off CP attendances in the 70s and 80s - you're the King of the Disappeared!! Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 85.158.138.20 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' dianogah Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 347 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #36 on Jun 16, 2010, 1:34pm » made contact with David Potter Sent him in the direction of this forum Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 130.209.6.40 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #37 on Jun 16, 2010, 2:53pm » I now know where his Sister in Law Ellen Gorevin is buried who died in 1913. She has a headstone I believe. If this is our man and he died in 1915 then there is a chance he is in the same place and that he has one too. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 viewparktims Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 328 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #38 on Jun 16, 2010, 7:05pm » Jun 16, 2010, 1:34pm, dianogah wrote: made contact with David Potter Sent him in the direction of this forum Excellent as it would be helpful to find out the source for the Hibernian reference to "Harry". I've also contacted Pat Woods to see if he can shed any light on the matter. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 93.97.68.26 chalmers New Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 3 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #39 on Jun 17, 2010, 7:13pm » I've searched Ancestry.com's worldwide database for the surname Gorevin (no first name or initial) and after the first 400 or so, the results start to weaken with soundalikes (Girvan, Griffen, etc). Not one result - male or female - came up with the initial 'H'. I've also searched Scotland's People and had the same result. If an ‘H Gorevin’ had existed in Britain or America, he would surely have been flagged up unless he died very soon after arriving in US. There were obviously ‘H Gorevins’ in Sligo at the time, but Irish genealogy records are hard to get, certainly online. As Charlie Gorevin went to America in 1886, he has to be ruled out as our player in the 1888 match. The 1881 Scottish Census (already mentioned by Wee Shamrock) shows the following family members living at 15 Queen Street, Govan: Stephen Gorevin, 50, General Labourer. Margaret Gorevin, 48, Wife. James Gorevin, 25, General Labourer. Michael Gorevin, 18, General Labourer. Charles Gorevin, 16, General Labourer. Patrick Gorevin, 14, Scholar. Margaret Gorevin, 12, Scholar. All were born in Ireland. It was a Govan address and our Gorevin played for Govan Whitefield, although it’s suspected that Charlie played for Hibs, which would have entailed some travel. It seems that Charles went to America first in 1886 when he would have been 21, and two years before Celtic's first game. Michael went in 1888 and his father followed in 1891, presumably with his wife as I could find no trace of her death in Scotland. The 1900 US census gives Stephen’s age as 65, which is adrift of the 1881 Scottish census which would make him 69. It was very common in those days to add/subtract years from your life, however. Michael's departure in 1888 would explain why there's little evidence of him in Scotland after that year, and he certainly doesn't appear in the 1891 census, and neither does Stephen, which may indicate that he emigrated in the first three months of that year. Like his father, his age doesn't quite add up. If he was really 18 in 1881, he should be 37 in 1900, but he's shown as aged 33. I have discovered the following New York connections between Charlie, Michael and Stephen, indicating that they did almost certainly emigrate over a five-year period from 1886 to 1891: - Charles Gorevin (Blacksmith) and Michael Gorevin (Riveter) were living at the same address, 481 Warren, Brooklyn. (Lain’s Brooklyn Directory, 1891). - Charles Gorevin (Blacksmith) and Michael Gorevin (Riveter) were living at the same address, 54 Cumberland, Brooklyn. (Lain's Brooklyn Directory For The Year Ending May 1st, 1892). - Charles and Michael were still living at 54 Cumberland during year ending 1st May 1895, but were now joined by STEVEN (sic) Gorevin. Stephen's wife must have passed away by then. The 1900 US census shows the following entries: - At 141 53rd St, NY: o Michael (Head), age 33, place of birth, Ireland, occupation Boiler Maker, immigration year 1888. o Mary A Gorevin, Wife, age 27. o Margaret Gorevin, daughter, age 2. o Michael Gorevin, son, age 2. BTW, Michael Jnr was drafted into the US Army in (what looks like) September 1918, just 2 months before the war ended. He died in October, 1967, aged 68. - At 134 Park Avenue, NY: o Charles Gorevin, Head, age 34, place of birth, Ireland, occupation Boiler Maker, immigration year, 1886. o Mary, Wife, age 36. There were no children in the house, and there were still no children in the 1910 census. The US clippings on page 2 are interesting. Obviously the GAA match had Charlie playing, but we have no way of knowing which one took part in the soccer matches. I notice that one of the linesmen is called “Gorvin” – too much of a coincidence not to be one of the brothers, surely? I see from a couple of the clips that each team supplied one linesman each in those days. It was much fairer then as Rangers usually supply two nowadays! Based on purely circumstantial evidence, I think that Michael's our man and his initial was picked up incorrectly. It's an easy mistake to make - the 'M' as written by the census enumerator in 1881 is very much like an ‘H’ and would have been taken as such if the rest of ‘Michael’ hadn’t been there to put it in context. Then it just needs one newspaper to print it incorrectly and it becomes fact. BTW, I can't explain the 'Harry Gorevin' of Hibs, but that seems to have been passed down without documentary evidence. Could it have been a mis-hearing of 'Charlie', even? Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 84.18.3.45 maleysspirit Junior Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 88 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #40 on Jun 17, 2010, 10:01pm » Doing my own family history for a while now I have found two things which may affect this. Sites like ancestry and even scotlands people have been at times poorly transcribed, you would not believe the spelling variants or complete misspellings I have had on both, I have also had people I know were in a particular place disappear. That may be completely unhelpful of course!!!! Secondly people frequently went between Sunday names and family pet names in census etc. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 81.103.39.247 maleysspirit Junior Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 88 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #41 on Jun 17, 2010, 10:35pm » Had a quick look on Ancestry just searching for Harolds and Harrys born in Ireland in the 1881 and there is a Harry Gevan living with his wife Lily in 21 Cleveland St. which is in Barony district the area usually associated with Calton/Bridgeton, can`t find this street on virtual mitchell though. Census enumerators couldn`t cope with certain Irish names and pronunciations so wrote them as they heard them sometimes.....say Gorevin in a thick Sligo accent and what does it sound like? Just speculating. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 81.103.39.247 chalmers New Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 3 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #42 on Jun 17, 2010, 11:50pm » I understand what you're saying, Maleyspirit, as I've come across various different spellings in my own or my wife's family. Sometimes it's the enumerator, but very often it's the person digitalising the information in more recent years. However, the names of Stephen, Charles, Michael Snr and Michael Jnr each cropped up at least 4 or 5 times in different documents during my searches. H Gorevin didn't appear even once. You might expect his name to be wrongly transcribed perhaps once, but not every time. Unless, as I suggested, he died very soon after arriving in the US. Another issue is that all the Gorevins that I listed above were literate (US censuses ask the question 'Can you read'), and I've often found that it's much more likely for names to be mis-transcribed when the subject of the census can't read or write, because they may not be sure how to spell their own name and the enumerator then has to guess. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 84.18.3.45 viewparktims Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 328 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #43 on Jun 18, 2010, 9:26am » Chalmers, Thanks for the input. The Year of Immigration can be misleading as, for example, in the case of my grandfather he twice went to the USA and had to state he was immigrating to get a job and twice he came back between 1914 & 1923. I can only assume the system was not a slick as in the modern day. Also on CM there is a post stating that a Charlie Goravin aged 24 years is on Passenger List from Glasgow to New York in October 1888 which therefore makes the case stronger that this could be our man « Last Edit: Jun 18, 2010, 9:29am by viewparktims » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 93.97.68.26 chalmers New Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 3 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #44 on Jun 18, 2010, 10:34am » Jun 18, 2010, 9:26am, viewparktims wrote: Chalmers, Thanks for the input. The Year of Immigration can be misleading as, for example, in the case of my grandfather he twice went to the USA and had to state he was immigrating to get a job and twice he came back between 1914 & 1923. I can only assume the system was not a slick as in the modern day. Also on CM there is a post stating that a Charlie Goravin aged 24 years is on Passenger List from Glasgow to New York in October 1888 which therefore makes the case stronger that this could be our man Accepted. I see that Stephen 'Goravin' is also on the same ship, lying about his age. He's down as 46 when he must have been about 57. So the task remains to connect Charlie with the mysterious 'H'? |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:33 AM Post #9 |
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hor Topic: Charlie Gorevin- Located - Pictures (Read 697 times) weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #45 on Jun 18, 2010, 11:08am » Wow. This is a truly fascinating story bhoys. I've a feeling that if Alan Lugton's Hibs book was indexed we'd have a good idea on the source of the name "Harry" as a Hibs player and could cross-reference it. I think the most likely source of that information is a local Edinburgh paper of the 1880s which covered football. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 85.158.137.196 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin « Reply #46 on Jun 18, 2010, 11:19am » May 31st 1895-G Garvin plays for Centreville at half back winning 2-0 against Brooklyn Wanderers. Should this be C Gorevin. I have a full timeline of Charlie's life which I will post in CM with all supporting documents. He was Irish, lived in Govan, played for Govan Whitefield and is then proven to have moved from Govan to New York where he played GAA as well as association football. Ad yet as is said elsewhere there is no sign of an H Gorevin anywhere We have the notes of Eugene McBride as massive supporting evidence too. Is there any way these notes can be scanned and added to the record. « Last Edit: Jun 18, 2010, 12:54pm by camillo » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 joebloggscity Full Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 146 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #47 on Jun 30, 2010, 11:08am » Was it resolved how best to spell this guy's name properly? Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 194.203.201.92 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #48 on Jun 30, 2010, 1:05pm » We've just found evidence that Charlie Gorevin is the outfield player as Michael was a goalkeeper and that they both played for Brooklyn Longfellow FC. What would be good though would be if we could have a scan of Eugene McBride's notes to investigate his sources for Charlie and Michael. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 87.194.157.112 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #49 on Jun 30, 2010, 1:21pm » There is no evidence suggesting that a Harry Gorevin was in Scotland in 1887/1888 other than Alan Lugton's book first book on Hibs, which refers to Harry as a Carfin Shamrock player. The source of that is unknown. There is a number of references to a Gorevin playing for the Govan team Whitefield from 1886 through to 1888. (None after September 1888) There is a lot of documentary/ancestral evidence confirming that Charlie Gorevin lived in Govan with his family at that time before he left for the States in September 1888 where he played football for a number of years and also Gaelic football. This appears to back up Eugene McBride's assertion that it was Charlie Gorevin who played for us as well as Govan Whitefield. Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 85.158.139.227 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' viewparktims Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 328 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #50 on Jun 30, 2010, 3:09pm » Jun 30, 2010, 1:05pm, camillo wrote: We've just found evidence that Charlie Gorevin is the outfield player as Michael was a goalkeeper and that they both played for Brooklyn Longfellow FC. What would be good though would be if we could have a scan of Eugene McBride's notes to investigate his sources for Charlie and Michael. Unfortunately, Eugene's note is written in pencil and won't scan. Also he does not identify his source although he was correct in that a Charlie & M Gorevin played for Brooklyn Longfellow FC Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 93.97.68.26 joebloggscity Full Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 146 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #51 on Jul 2, 2010, 1:30pm » http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/Gorevin%2C+H I've started a page on him in the wiki as above.... let's hope we can settle this mystery one day. Maybe (just maybe) there is an ancestor out there who can answer the question...... Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 194.203.201.92 weeshamrock Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 938 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #52 on Jul 3, 2010, 6:42pm » A match report of Celtic's third ever game at Celtic Park, against Mossend Swift from the Scottish Umpire of June 10, 1888: "Not long afterwards Reid again gave the visitors the lead, but ere half-time Charlie Gorevin equalised with a grand shot, Reid missing his kick in attempting to save." This proves that Camillo's research and the work done by VT is spot on - the Celtic player was Charlie, not Harry, and we've found his grave in Brooklyn in the US. Great work bhoys! It also suggests that the club's history books and few Hibs ones are inaccurate also, but I'm sure we can forgive them the odd mistake. « Last Edit: Jul 3, 2010, 6:43pm by weeshamrock » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 85.158.139.99 'They never die who live in the hearts they leave behind' viewparktims Administrator member is offline Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 328 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #53 on Jul 3, 2010, 10:14pm » Jul 3, 2010, 6:42pm, weeshamrock wrote: A match report of Celtic's third ever game at Celtic Park, against Mossend Swift from the Scottish Umpire of June 10, 1888: "Not long afterwards Reid again gave the visitors the lead, but ere half-time Charlie Gorevin equalised with a grand shot, Reid missing his kick in attempting to save." This proves that Camillo's research and the work done by VT is spot on - the Celtic player was Charlie, not Harry, and we've found his grave in Brooklyn in the US. Great work bhoys! It also suggests that the club's history books and few Hibs ones are inaccurate also, but I'm sure we can forgive them the odd mistake. Do you have a copy of the match report that you can email to me « Last Edit: Jul 3, 2010, 10:20pm by viewparktims » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top 93.97.68.26 camillo Administrator member is online They all loved the Green Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,147 Re: H Gorevin- Located - No pics yet « Reply #54 on Jul 3, 2010, 10:40pm » Great work WS. A mystery no more. Charlie Gorevin of Celtic. |
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| Camillo | Jan 25 2011, 05:33 AM Post #10 |
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Many people have made the discovery of Charlie Gorevin's grave and the confirmation of his actual identity possible. The only person I will name though is NYCLenny and his son John (pictures). They went to the Cemetery of the Holy Cross in Brooklyn this morning to confirm Charlie's final resting place. He lies in his brother Thomas Gorevin's plot alongside 8 other members of the Gorevin family Suitable to have a one of the youngest members of the Celtic Family amongst one of the original Celts. Charles Gorevin of Celtic Football Club Rest in Peace Charlie and Hail Hail 
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